The Lore Dilemma: Do ‘fan theories’ really ruin shows and movies?

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scapegoatman
scapegoatman
4 months ago

I thought the show was fine. I'm not too knowledgeable about the Scarlett Witch, I don't read fan theories, and I didn't really have any expectations going into the show. I'm more of an X-Men fan than an Avengers fan so I'm more knowledgeable about them and for the most part Scarlett Witch was always more of an Avengers character. It probably helps having writers who know about the franchise they're writing for, and if I was a bigger Scarlett Witch fan, maybe I would've had more problems with the show, but I thought the writing within the story itself was fine. The show was internally consistent regardless of whatever liberties it took with the source material. It's not the best show I've ever seen, but I found it entertaining and I don't have any major complaints.

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

I have a real soft spot for X-Men growing up.

And this broke my heart. (It’s not their fault, but it is….)

*read my bio😘

Intrepid Explorer
Intrepid Explorer
4 months ago

What ruins shows and movies is bad writing; especially the failure of a "Mystery Box" premise. JJ might have set up the Sequel Trilogy with this in mind, and while everyone blames Rian Johnson for revealing there was nothing inside it don't let that fool you into thinking the box ever was anything but empty to begin with.

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

They used the biggest crossover event since “Endgame” for B0N£R joke………seriously?

Still loved the show.

*read my bio😘

Medalion
Medalion
4 months ago

No… fan theories are what makes awaiting a hyped movie's release so fun. At times they are way more interesting than the final product.

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

Ep1-Ep8 easy 9/10, 10/10

Ep9 sadly 6/10,
“He he Bohner.”

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

Saying goodbye to the family saved Ep9 from being 4/10.
It’s was not that great. 6/10

RarefiedOcean1
RarefiedOcean1
4 months ago

the last jedi went wrong because rj wanted to create his own movie regardless of any set up beforehand making even logical fan theories completely useless and therefore the movie a disappointment.

wandavision it felt like they purposely put things into the series to create speculation and cause people to theorize knowing that there wasnt going to be any kind of significant pay off.

in both instances its not really the people theorizing who are in the fault for their disappointment imo. its the creators of the series who for some reason are going out of their way to disappoint these fans on purpose.

JG R
JG R
4 months ago

JJ: says he loves the Darth Plagueis scene.
also JJ: doesn't open that mystery box that Lucas left behind.

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

0:50 JJ, and his team hate the prequels.
Fact.
Poor guy
1:50 that’s a bold lie to shut up the fans.
(He’s seen the movies before that.)

Dale Sweet
Dale Sweet
4 months ago

I’m thinking that whenever someone wants to work in an established franchise they need a lore/continuity team. So the writer can go hey, ‘I wanna do X’ then it’s taken to the team to help in revising and editing the script.

Reimagining Star Wars
Reimagining Star Wars
4 months ago

Never ascribe to fandom which can be explained by luck it will always leave hardcore fans disappointed

Medalion
Medalion
4 months ago

You don't have to be an expert or a fan of the material you are writing…. the bottom line is tell a good story with good acting and is presented well… the rest falls into place.

Blake Davison
Blake Davison
4 months ago

Yeah, fan theories and all of that are so interesting in so many ways. However, what sucks about them is that they have the potential to encourage fans to create expectations for things they were never promised. That’s nobody’s fault necessarily, but it’s an unfortunate thing that can happen. I try my best to not get wrapped up in what might happen, and try to just have fun with the things I’m given. But that can be hard, especially when I just can’t stop watching videos on YouTube! 😂

Chris DeLisle
Chris DeLisle
4 months ago

Who should the show cater to? Whatever Kevin Feige's vision for the entire Marvel Universe is. For people who are disappointed with Wandavision's ending, it's on them. Perhaps it IS on the culture of Theory-crafting that's developed on Youtube. The shows are not the books. We should have all learned that from watching Game of Thrones. The ending of Wandavision was fine. Yeah, Heyward was merely a jackass and no more interesting than that, but it wasn't his story. Yeah, Ralph being merely a dick-joke was slightly underwhelming. The show was a tool to help set up future Marvel endeavors, such as Monica Rambeau with superpowers. I don't think anyone thought Wandavision would become a bit of a phenomenon. I think it's a case of not knowing what they really had. If they knew how it would turn out, perhaps they would have put more thought into certain aspects. I don't think anyone fully comprehended the NEED for this show to be more than it was, given COVID…the lack of other Marvel properties…etc. It was a bit of a phenomenon because the audience had been starved and for a while there, it was something totally original. Maybe there are a lot of lessons they'll take from this show and it will help inform the future of Marvel.

Craig Goetsch
Craig Goetsch
4 months ago

WandaVision's writer not knowing about Mephisto, means Kevin Feige didn't want her to know.
So Kevin must have plans to FIX the twins horrible comicbook origin.
The shards of Mephisto's soul shit, was soo bad.

Jakob Bauer
Jakob Bauer
4 months ago

I don’t think the wandavision ending was that badly written – but full disclosure I’m not a massive x men or comic fan. Rise of Skywalker on the other hand is badly written fan theories or not.

Mister Gaming
Mister Gaming
4 months ago

Following lore is easy. People are not stupid. Follow good movie story telling never showing skills that haven't already been established and it will all fit into place. Blaming speculative fans for the failings of the writers, is not the correct approach. That's like blaming eatery patrons for speculation about your dish because you named it something that hints what it is. We hear Cake and we have an idea of texture and sweetness. You cannot blame fans for theories about carrot cake tasting like carrots.

rickeymariu1
rickeymariu1
4 months ago

I think fan theories do ruin shows to a degree because of how the creators respond

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

2:50 then wtf would you put her in full command?!?
Her input yes. But director?

Caleb
Caleb
4 months ago

the fan theories didn't ruin the sequels, the bad writing and lack of any kind of game plan did

jish55
jish55
4 months ago

Not necessarily. Sometimes, it will as expectations become a lot higher even though there was no hint or proof towards the theories, but sometimes, the show doesn't provide a good enough conclusion to counter the fan theories. With WandaVision, the series in general was amazing, but the finale was okay, which is an issue as the finale should be the most exciting part of the overall series/movie/game/book/etc. For me, I never subscribed to fan theories and always said that until it shows up in the show, it should be considered non existent. The one issue I do have with WandaVision was what they did with Quicksilver since Marvel hired the actor whose been playing Quicksilver for the majority of the last decade in a franchise Disney obtained ownership of months before they started filming WandaVision while also having a film coming out called Multiverse of Madness only for it to lead into nothing more than a stupid dick joke. If that's literally all they wanted to do, they shouldn't have hired Evan Peters and instead just give us a random actor to take up the role, which would have given us the same red herring without giving us a major cross over possibility without delivering on it.

Frantz
Frantz
4 months ago

Some fan theories suck, and the people who subscribe to them act like children when their hopes don’t become reality. Don’t get me wrong, some stories are just bad regardless of theories(last Jedi) but there’s a reason why fans are fans and not the writers. Most fan theories are made by people who wanted to be writers and failed, because they simply wasn’t good enough. Their own stories never got picked up because it was nonsensical, so they cling onto someone else’s story to “make it better.” Make your own stuff better first, then tell others how to do it the right way.

Meesa Your Humble Servant
Meesa Your Humble Servant
4 months ago

If it was supposed to be about Wanda and her grief, don’t bring in Evan Peters just to troll fans.

muskatDR
muskatDR
4 months ago

Small teases that requires hardcore fanbase lore can take place as long as its in the background and not the center of a story with no explanation. Where a casual fan will just see a neat sword pommel a more hardcore fan will recognize the seal of the Heroes Guild

Edward Lewis
Edward Lewis
4 months ago

I think the show did plenty. In 9 episodes, it introduced 5 new heroes/villains (Monica, White Vision, Agatha, Tommy, Billy) as well as flesh out 4 existing characters (Wanda, Vision, Darcy, Jimmy). All while keeping a compelling storyline focused on the main characters. The hype was unreal because it was the first MCU content in over a year and it was released weekly so lots of time to overthink things.

Craig Goetsch
Craig Goetsch
4 months ago

There was NO PROMISE of a big reveal.
There was fake news of a big reveal.
It was an off-hand "sure," that the reviewers/theorists turned up to eleven.

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

5:20 but that’s soup…………..

Not the biggest crossover since ENDGAME!

M. Eberhart
M. Eberhart
4 months ago

My take on it is that it is the fans who carried the franchise who should be pleased before anyone else. There is a logic behind this, believe it or not.

First,…if you make something that is liked enough to carry its own fandom then obviously there is something within it that resonates with some people on a particular level. For example, there are those who like superheroes and those who don't. But even among those people there are those who like superheroes who are powerful like Superman and then there are those who like heroes who use their brains and brawn like Batman. And you can divide it further like those who prefer Robin or Batgirl to the actual Batman. The point is if you were to make, say, a Robin movie for the masses why would you aim to please the general public over the fans who bought the comics, T-shirts and action figures?

Oh, right. Money. Studios focus on 'There are those who like superheroes and those who don't' and ask themselves "How can we get those who DON'T like superheroes to come to our movie? How do we make THEM happy?"

But the problem is,…once you move away from the character's established personality and lore to appease the general public he is no longer the character that fans know but someone else calling himself Robin. The movie is in theaters for one summer but, tick off your fanbase, and fans who bought the merchandise before won't be wanting to buy it anymore if you weren't true to the character. Congratulations. You just put a bullet wound in your franchise. Hopefully it's not terminal.

Second,…the universe built around the character(s) already worked. That's why there was a fanbase. So,…rather than change things for the public why not use this opportunity to educate your public on the character and what s/he/it is all about? Fans will love it. They will be your free advertising agents. Like when Tobey McGuire's Spider-Man showed up all the Spidey fans were saying, "See? This is why I collected comics all these years!" The general public, too, was happy because it was something different than the typical Hollywood stuff. But can you imagine if they made that movie to appeal to the masses first and foremost? It would have been formulaic like every other Hollywood story and not nearly as successful. The movie carried itself because it FELT real and established,…and it was,…from a fan perspective. (Not that the movie was perfect from a fan perspective,…there were fans who complained about a few things that were basically minor in nature. It was not a revolt, though, like what The Last Jedi did for Star Wars fans, for example.)

Sam T
Sam T
4 months ago

only when the quality of the fan theories is better than the actual writing we get from the content…

Cole Buckon
Cole Buckon
4 months ago

I don’t think fan theories ruin anything. Other than Agnes being Agatha Harkness, nothing I theorized might happen at the end of WandaVision happened, yet I really enjoyed how the main plot tied up. It was emotionally satisfying, and I did get the sense that Wanda finally got the focus she deserved, re-contextualizing all of her supporting roles in the movies into one cohesive narrative and pushing her one step farther along that road.

The thing is … everything else about this finale was poorly written. Rambeau getting powers was rushed and represented the last moment when she had relevance to the story, Agent Woo got captured for no apparent reason and promptly escaped, Hayward devolved into a laughably ineffectual Government Man Bad villain with no coherent or rational motivation, the Quicksilver reveal that only makes sense if it’s meant to tie to the X-Men films was a throwaway joke, Darcy was forgotten about and then brought in to stop Hayward after he had already lost, and the rising tension devolved into a CGI punch up that clashed tonally with the rest of the story and where Wanda only succeeded through a method that was barely introduced and which she should have no knowledge of how to actually used. The only part of the climax that was decent was Vision defeating White Vision with a conversation; at least that was true to his character.

Blaming people’s dissatisfaction in fan theories is as much a transparent deflection now as it was with TLJ and TROS. There are objective problems with this script that stripped the life out of things people enjoyed. There were clear setups with no payoff. If you don’t want people to have fan theories, then don’t put in setups unless you have satisfying payoffs in mind.

I don’t think people need to be fans to tell stories within established franchises. However, if you aren’t a fan, then you need to really do your research to understand the story, lore, and why people love it and/or have people working with you who can do that and then check your work. Don’t just throw out superficial elements or indulge in your own personal fan fiction. Understand and honor your source material.

Richard Williams
Richard Williams
4 months ago

Honestly, a lot of the fan theories are better than the actual stories

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

7:25 it never was to begin with.

Yet they still disappoint. “He he Bohner”

100 possibility’s and they chose 5th grader joke.

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

7:40 that’s not the Problem THOR.
“He he Bohner”
Run time.
White Vision dips.
Evil man shoots at children.

😐 (not impressed)

Craig Goetsch
Craig Goetsch
4 months ago

A reasonable Ralph Theory: He's the sitcom trope of the Unseen Spouse.
Unreasonable Ralph Theory: I THINK Agnes is really a witch, so her mentioned wedding date, means demon…Ralph MUST be Mephisto!
To many theories I've heard just started, from nowhere near the story actually being shown.

CarlosTakeshi
CarlosTakeshi
4 months ago

The problem for a creator who doesn't know the lore is the fanbase will include people who do, and those people will educate those who don't. This will lead you to be writing writing checks that you have no idea you're writing.

Writing new material in a pre-existing fictional universe is somewhat like writing historical fiction. The characters, scenarios, all the lore, are known to at least some of the audience, and some of those extremely well. If you set a story in the court of King Louis the XVI, it's up to you to know the context. If you know nothing of the fall of the French monarchy, the French Revolution, or French history generally, then when fan start speculating about "Oh, maybe THIS means the hero will be caught up in Bastille Day!", it's your fault that you have no idea that you don't know what Bastille Day is, and it doesn't pay off in a satisfying way, one way or another.

Generally speaking, satisfaction is tied to meeting expectations. If the expectation is set that you will receive a ten out of ten, and you get a seven, that's disappointing. If the promise is for a five, and you get a seven, that's fantastic. With these inadvertent Easter eggs, they're setting expectations that they will never pay off, so it's inevitable that there will be disappointment.

As for WandaVision, I really enjoyed it. I was slightly disappointed with Pietro/Ralph, because of the effect I mentioned. It seemed like the story was building him up to be a key component of the mystery, but no, he was just another thing that happened. Overall, though, the core story of Wanda and her journey was compelling, and the possibilities for her character going forward are really exciting. And even if the creators had known all the lore, they might have left "references" in, but they would have done it knowingly, and maybe have been able to do it more deftly.

Ahsoka Skywalker
Ahsoka Skywalker
4 months ago

8:25 cause every episode built up to something like the “Multiverse” nope.

“Bohner”

Bruce Bane
Bruce Bane
4 months ago

Me: sees title

Also me: YES!!!! Fans SHOULD NOT dictate or influence or speculate about what writers and producers come up up with or put out

There’s an old saying out there: “keep your expectations low and you will never be disappointed”

Captain-Axeman
Captain-Axeman
4 months ago

No, fan theories definitely don't ruin media, it gives the media attention. So, technically they are contributing to the media.

Gray Ham
Gray Ham
4 months ago

I didn't like the finale cus it was the classic cgi bullcrap that i really feel should have been subverted in favor of a more doctor strange esc ending

Miken Ayers
Miken Ayers
4 months ago

Here’s how I see it. Maybe don’t make mysteries or go out of their way with teases, if there’s little to no payoff.

Also, don’t give clues only for the audience that hold no bearing in the narrative.

If Rey’s not related to anyone we would know, don’t tease the opposite, and also don’t let the mystery drag out for two years. Rey never suspected she was a Skywalker/Solo/Kenobi/Palpatine/Binks, but instead just wanted to learn who her parents were. She just wanted to know no matter who.

If you’re going to have someone get brainwashed into thinking he’s Pietro Maximoff to troll Wanda, maybe don’t have the unwilling imposter played by the same guy that played him in another franchise.

Subversion and surprises work, but only when you still send the fans home happy.

00Predaking00
00Predaking00
4 months ago

The little faith a I had is that that's exactly what they are going for, with Evan Peters bee the random neighbor Number 37 and when we see him again in a future projects, it's pietro alongside deadpool. Now that could totally save Marvel from the rate of some angry fans

Nichlas Christensson
Nichlas Christensson
4 months ago

The problem is that the people responsible for the sequels, obviously wasn't fans and doesn't understand Star Wars. Even Headlund claimed to be a fan. I guess many thinks they are cool movies with lightsabers and stuff, and are fans of that. That's all good but doesn't mean you understand what star wars is all about and can create new movies.
Haven't seen Wanda vision quit my subscription after Gina got fired

justin thomas
justin thomas
4 months ago

1:58 – "And I'm joking. I hope."
Oof.

Gurpreet Uppal
Gurpreet Uppal
4 months ago

Idk if ppl notice this but daisy in the clip was abt to say ohhh is that sn-
So maybe that’s why they got so jittery and snoke was originally going to be plagueis

Jonas Odhner
Jonas Odhner
4 months ago

Damn that clip at the start was such a big fat yikes

Craig Goetsch
Craig Goetsch
4 months ago

Why would you get that actor?
SO WE, the viewers, THINK HE MIGHT ACTUALLY BE PIETRO!
Even though he is OBVIOUSLY NOT the MCU Pietro!
Is the story as good if we know the instant we see Pietro, that he is really Fietro.
I LIKED wondering for a couple weeks.

Grand Admiral Thrawn
Grand Admiral Thrawn
4 months ago

If those who work in franchises aren't fans or don't understand said franchise, then no. The franchise then suffers as they try to appease the lowest common denominator, the common movie-goer, and make an average product. They, the fan theories, can be better than what is being written. If those who work in franchises are fans and do understand the franchise as well as the mind of the fan, then they know what the fans want or what they didn't know what they wanted. They are able to provide products that not only make fans want those products, but the product itself is handled in such a way that fans are able to bring in others to enjoy it as well.

Strictly Jake
Strictly Jake
4 months ago

They only ruin poorly-written ones. If they're well-written they satisfy the majority of the fans. If they are stupid then the fan fairies look better in comparison

M. Eberhart
M. Eberhart
4 months ago

This video made me think of something a friend said. He said he would have loved to see the original Thrawn trilogy brought to the big screen. I said that I would have, too.

The reason it is interesting is,…we both already know the story. "Won't that bother you?", someone might ask. The truth is,…no. No more than Anakin Skywalker joining the Dark, Side, killing off Jedi and leaving behind two heirs he didn't know about in Revenge of the Sith. I don't need expectations subverted to enjoy the movie,…the art is in the telling of the story. Can you imagine if George Lucas decided to change Anakin's story at the end? "Ah. Actually, that wasn't the real Anakin Skywalker. That was a clone of Anakin. And the other baby Padme had that no else saw…there's three of them,…is actually the REAL hero of the story which I hope to tell in episodes 7, 8 and 9 someday,…" People would roll their eyes and say "Enough!".

It's about good storytelling. It's why the original trilogy is still widely considered the best. We didn't need a ton of CGI to sell it. Sure,…the dialogue could have been better but the story,…the STORY,…was fun and interesting. I contend that people would rather see something that they already know if told in a way that is written well than to see something that they know (like original characters) CHANGED just to mix it up/keep it interesting. If your writers, producers or other talent have to resort to that tactic to make things work,….well,…maybe they aren't that good at storytelling to start with and you should hire someone else. A good storyteller knows how to continue a story so that it fits within the established narrative.

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